What do we stand for?

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Spector567
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What do we stand for?

Postby Spector567 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:15 pm

FSM started as a simple letter to the Kansas school board to highlight how illogical there argument on Intelligent design was. It later boomed to Internet fame. Since than we have written several thousand letters, and stood alert to re-appearances of I.D. The community has grown with good cheer and fun and spaghetti for all.

Since than with many members FSM has grown across the world gained some fame and created a gathering place for several like minded people.

After so many years from it’s creation. I ask you what do we stand for now? Our name has been used in letter campaigns, amusing stories and protest against the fundie elite. Big growth from a simple letter.

I don’t ask this question lightly. It’s obvious the FSM name is for many purposes it’s also equally obvious from some recent events, the majority of the disagreeing mail and several stories even within our own group that the majority of outsiders don’t know what we are about and at some point that becomes our fault. We are no longer a small group with one goal. We are many many groups each with our own goals all under one banner.

What do we stand for? What do we want to promote? Do our actions promote what we stand for?


Side note: this post was somewhat inspired recent events. However, it's not the point of the discussion. We had no part in it but we were blamed.

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Re: What do we stand for?

Postby DaveL » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:54 am

YArrrr...

Try startin here matey.

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=3517

A bit of healthy debate is a good thing, but primarily we are against the teaching ID in science class.
Creationism in science classes will never go away, so until it does, neither will we.
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Re: What do we stand for?

Postby Capt_Cud » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:18 am

Yarr, we stand for there be no empty seats on dar bus.

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Re: What do we stand for?

Postby Edd » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:35 am

Spector567 wrote:What do we stand for? What do we want to promote? Do our actions promote what we stand for?


Lumping together all of us is just as bad as saying all Christians are the same, or worse.

As DaveL said, the one unifying aspect of FSMism is the opposition of teaching ID as science. Other than that, there is only the appreciation of satire tying us together. While Bobby wrote an inspirational letter, I wouldn’t say I’m his disciple or follower. Even the FSM only makes ‘Suggestions’ instead of ‘Commandments.’ The day I think belonging here requires ‘standing’ for something is the day I will sadly stop believing in a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I read the post on the main page and see the misportrayal of Pastafarians as no fault of yours.
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Spector567
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Re: What do we stand for?

Postby Spector567 » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:01 pm

LOL so we are a bunch of people who disagree with I.D. and run around in pirate costumes using our own in interpretation of FSM to speak for against what we believe his noodlyness would want.

Well it's done. Now we really are a religion. =)

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Re: What do we stand for?

Postby Ziggy » Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:28 pm

For the sake of trying to defy gravity.
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tris
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Re: What do we stand for?

Postby tris » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:02 am

As Spector567 says "FSMism started as a simple letter to the Kansas school board to highlight how illogical there (sic!) argument on Intelligent design was." but it has grown into an Internet phenomenon of global dimensions.
But I think it would be rather limited to say that FSMism simply stands for combating the teaching of ID in science classes in the US.
I guess everyone has their own reasons for being into the C of the FSM... some of you (I am not really among those of you!) are into the whole pirate nonsense and just want to run around in pirate costumes using their own interpretation of FSMism and what they believe his noodlyness would want. (I got rid of contradictory word combinations such as “for against” in this near-citation!)… some of us just enjoy making disrespectful, “desacratory” (excuse the Italianism!) or funny remarks: e.g. Capt_Cud ("Yarr, we stand for there be no empty seats on dar bus" !!!!)... while some of us (I presume Spector567 is one, like me) really want to engage in some “intelligent debate” about religion and science etc.
Personally, being of English origin and living in Italy, the whole "Intelligent Design" debate is rather a far-removed and academic issue for me (nobody really takes it at all seriously in Europe... thank the FSM!), but I am fascinated by the whole religion vs. science debate and I hope to be able to engage in some exchange of opinions regarding it on this site (within a humorous light-hearted funny context however… this is one thing I love about this site… it’s not heavy!) My hopes haven’t really been fulfilled so far… but I’m a tenacious little fucker! :twisted:
I personally don’t particularly agree with the idea of Pastafarianism having to “stand for” anything in particular… it’s nice that it is so wide-ranging and varied… (the expression of various viewpoints, also if they are conflicting and contradictory, is a form of free-speech and democracy that doesn’t really exist in most religions and this religion is refreshingly different in this respect… probably because it isn’t REALLY a religion!) and in fact I don’t particularly agree with the whole idea of an esoteric “inner circle” of “converts” or the “Elect Pastafarians” with their own private “discussion forums”… (it smacks of Calvinism and contradicts the whole free-speech and democratic set up!) altho’ I guess there’s probably a justification and explanation for it although no-one has told me it yet!
Edd rightly says “The day I think belonging here requires ‘standing’ for something is the day I will sadly stop believing in a Flying Spaghetti Monster” and I agree that taking action to make sure we to “stand for” something in particular could well lead to fanaticism! I therefore herewith take the opportunity to repeat why I like Pastafarianism and dislike fanaticism, with my apologies to those of u who have perhaps already read a version of this post I sent in to the section of this site called “Comment on the Open Letter” (post #2469 - October 4th) addressed to Kaiser Bill and followed by another long exposition of my ideas on belief and various other long expositions of other ideas! So, sorry, but this is gonna be a bit long! (as the bishop said to the actress!)

I like Pastafarianism because, whereas the Christians who contribute to this site REALLY DO believe the weird ideas they profess, the Spaghetti Monsterists (or Pastafarians) PRETEND to believe… for satirical, ironic and humoristic purposes.
This is a fundamental distinction… In fact the reason the Pastafarians write crazy fanatical things is because they are PRETENDING to be fanatics. They are inventing the tenets and belief system of this religion as they go along (in a creative way) and in the process they often produce a parody of Christian dialectics and its archaic forms of expression, and the results are often extremely funny (at least I think so!)… In fact they are SUPPOSED (intended) to be funny, while the things the Christians write are usually supposed (intended) to be serious, but actually they are often UNINTENTIONALLY funny!
This is also due to the fact - which I commented on in a reply to “Hello, I am a Christian” post 144 - October 2nd - that ugly grammar (such as endless strings of subordinate and relative clauses), terrible spelling, obsessive CAPITALIZATION, non-sequiturs and clumsy, confused or ambiguous expression of over-complicated and undigested ideas is all typical of religious "believers"!
So we can see that Pastafarianism comes from a completely different direction from Christianity because Pastafarians do not really believe their “faith”! When they seem to be attacking Christianity and other “faiths”, they are really defending the right of all people to believe whatever they want (and for scientists to continue their work without being harassed or hindered by Pre-Medieval and “B.C.” ideas, which are all very interesting in their own way, but should in no way be considered as a substitute for science).
As well as this distinction between Christianity and Pastafarianism there is an even more fundamental distinction between Christianity and science. The first is based on a set of ancient texts, traditions and mostly obsolete belief systems, which have continued in a modified or deformed way until the present day, while the second is based on rational observation and logical analysis of our observable world.
It is certainly possible that there is an UNobservable world, which in some way “created” or “formed” or “maintains” our observable world and “everyday reality”. In fact I find some Christian ideas fascinating from an anthropological and historical point of view (the wonderful weirdness of human cultural manifestations never ceases to amaze me!). But what Pastafarianism rightly points out is that there is no PROOF (in the scientific sense) that our world was created by the Christian God and that we should believe in the Christian set of ideas (some of which are in direct contradiction to logic and rationality) rather than any other ancient idea, or for that matter a new idea such as Pastafarianism. Just because in the west our relatively recent ancestors (centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire) believed in that stuff (often because it was imposed on their own ancestors by force and violence) doesn’t mean that we should too. Nor does it mean we should try to impose such beliefs on others. That is just a form of cultural colonialism and arrogance.
Trying to replace the more typically modern scientific and rational forms of thought with such ancient non-scientific belief systems and superstitions is even more arrogant and dangerous… and could lead the world into another “dark age” of ignorance, intolerance and conflict.
If we really want to progress as a species perhaps it is time to look at some of our belief systems in a more critical way, also by putting them in a historical and cultural context. The recent attempts of Christians to “save” or “modernise” their flagging religion by making it sound scientific and hyping it as a viable alternative to scientific research, or even as a substitute for rational scientific thought, is in fact a direct threat to hundreds of years of human progress, which basically started in the Renaissance.
Christianity is more of a consolation than science for those people who are unable to understand the true depths of scientific wisdom… it in fact requires many years of study to appreciate it, as well as a relatively high IQ… but it cannot and must not REPLACE science! Religion is belief… science is knowledge!
After all if the west still believed exclusively in Christianity we would probably still be subject to periodic plague epidemics and would be persecuting or burning homosexuals and handicapped people and everyone with original ideas… in fact many Christians are still trying to persecute those with original ideas, such as the inventors of this site (the persecution of original ideas has been a constant feature of Christianity ever since its institutionalisation under the Emperor Constantine)
Pastafarianism is trying to make the light of tolerance and logic shine out. Pastafarians are in fact the torchbearers of a sort of relativistic truth, which is that all weird ideas (including Christianity!) are worthy of respect and toleration AS LONG AS THEY DON’T TRY TO REPLACE OR OPPRESS OTHER IDEAS. The fact that Pastafarianism is able to do this in a funny and ironic way means that they can criticise without entering into direct conflict. (I consider this the true stroke of genius of Mr Henderson... he has brought us salvation through laughter!).
I will write more on the theme of humorism and its possible epistemological implications, in the section of this site called “Comment on the Open Letter”!
I’ll just say 2 things here on the theme of humourism ... I think it's what keeps us sane... haven't you noticed how seriously the fanatics take themselves? (and we all know how close fanaticism is to insanity!) I don't think scientists consider their theories as being sacred articles of faith... and so they can joke about science. Not all scientists have a good sense of humour... but those that do are often hilarious!
Science is actually based on self criticism (which is close to humorism) as well as the attempt to DISprove itself... if a theory is disprovable or non-provable then it is wrong. If religion were based on the same rigorous criteria there probably wouldnt be any religion!
In conclusion, I’d just like to say that sometimes we just need to laugh at the fanatics. Let’s stop being so serious and politically correct when it comes to religion… everyone has a right to believe whatever they want… but I don’t think they have a right to force others to believe… if our respect for people’s beliefs means that we become afraid of the fanatics and fundamentalists and let their beliefs penetrate into areas where they don’t belong (such as science and medicine) we might end up like the Taliban, letting women die because doctors must not look at their bodies, or growing long stinky beards and putting smelly sacks over women’s faces because god or Allah “tells us to do it” and blowing up beautiful statutes of Buddha because they belong to another religious tradition… is that what we want for us and our children?? :worship:
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Re: What do we stand for?

Postby Edd » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:32 pm

Whoa, tris, you’ve made several generalizations concerning Pastafarians, Christians, and even the Taliban that not everyone would agree with. It is possible to be both Pastafarian and Christian, by the way. The Flying Spaghetti Monster only satirizes the teaching of Intelligent Design as science, not all Christians.

And you still seem to be under the impression that this forum in some way excludes certain individuals. Like I’ve mentioned before, only those with intent to disrupt discussion or who show a complete lack of respect for others are prohibited from participating and I’m sorry you feel that the link to join in some way discriminates but I fail to see how it does. On the version of the main site that appears before me, the box labeled ‘Discussion Forums’ is easily visible on every page but the Archives and FSM store and only requires a mouse click to transport me here.
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tris
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Re: What do we stand for?

Postby tris » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:57 pm

Hello again Edd!
It’s true that it is (theoretically) possible to be both Pastafarian and Christian, altho’ I think the two are rather incompatible! Anyway the great thing about Pastafarianism is that it's so open to everyone and it doesn’t require one to take any oaths and learn to recite any sacred texts or be subjected to weird ceremonies or get one’s foreskin sliced off or any of that crap… but I think a Christian would have to be rather sceptical of his faith to be a Pastafarian! Of course the whole fsm-Pastafarian thing started off as a criticism of the teaching of Intelligent Design as science but now it has taken on rather a life of its own and its adherents tend to criticise and satirise most of the medievalistic religious ideas that led to such a drastic proposition (the teaching of Intelligent Design as science is in fact symptomatic of a general underlying attitude of many “believers”). If you read the replies to the HateMail you’ll find that those who sympathise with Flying Spaghetti Monsterism (and I think we can call them Pastafarians) do not “only satirize the teaching of Intelligent Design as science” but they have a good crack at all the wacky ideas of Christianity and religions in general (havent you ever noticed that? When was the last time you read those posts??)
Of course I wouldn’t expect all Pastafarians to agree with my generalizations (I was only saying why I personally like Pastafarianism… not saying that all Pastafarians should agree with me!) I’d like to know which of my generalizations you don’t agree with though!
As regards the Taliban I think you’ll find that everything I said about them is true (perhaps the adjectives “stinky” and “smelly” were rather colourful, but I think there was in fact a Taliban law banning men from washing their beards too often or overdoing their personal hygiene!) they certainly blew up the Buddha statues and forbade doctors from looking at their women’s bodies though!
I’m gradually getting into the vibes of the “inner circle”, but I think one has to register as a Pastafarian in order to consult it and contribute to it... isn’t that so? I certainly haven’t encountered anyone in the forums who claims to be a christian or some other kind of religious believer…. have you? (who is it?? Let’s lynch him!!) :fsm_rock:
What’s this shitty place? I’m off to another Kali Yuga! Brahma
Are we a butterfly’s dream or is the butterfly our dream - and who really gives a toss? Lao Tsu
Quit hassling me, you sicko! Job
What? You gonna waste all of ‘em? Even the falafel sellers? Lot
Ya mean I gotta honour them fuckers that dumped me in the Nile!? Moses
WHERE THE HELL DID I PARK MY DAMN KARMA! ShakeYerMuni Buddha
Don’t step on my blue-suede sandals! Blue blue blue-suede sandals! Ol’ J C
You what Gabe!? Not even a wee sausage after Ramadan? Moham
Oh shit! It’s gonna be one of them bad-vibe incarnations! Dalai L

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Re: What do we stand for?

Postby Spector567 » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:58 pm

What I was originally getting was simple.

Pastafarism was invented/brought into mainstream in order to satirize the original I.D. proposal and has continued to do so. However, that is not all it’s members are doing.

The name of FSM is being used for many things some which are fairly standard fun stuff.

There is now an awful lot of political stuff it’s being used for as well.

I was hoping to spark a discussion on what those issues are and sadly it appears there are none. This fact is actually rather insulting and discouraging. I along with over 50,000 other people have stated that we support a group. A group that appears currently to stand for very little and who’s name is used to support whatever ideal an individual will choose without regard to the whole.

While this could be amusing at times, it basically makes FSM useless and at times shameful as it’s name is used by people in and beyond this forum in ways that are not supported by even the minimal published ideals it has.

So what are we, and what do we as a group support.

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Re: What do we stand for?

Postby Cardinal Fang » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:42 pm

I think to some extent FSM-ism has been adapted for related issues, e.g. fundamentalists trying to impose their own stamp on things.

This seems to me perfectly compatible with the original idea.

The reason I think that there hasn't been a definate answer is that it depends fully on where that person is and their own situation, and the issues in their area. I've used the Flying Spaghetti Monster a lot as part of the campaign against sections of Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 that bans people from protesting within 1 km of Parliament without permission (to make the point that one shouldn't need permission to hold a banner with the FSM on). But then again that goes to the fact I'm an activist as well as a scientist, and that I'm involved in campaigns regarding freedom of speech and assembly.

For people here, the unifying issue is resisting the introduction of ID/ creationism into schools and the consequential harm to the fact that is evolution.

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Re: What do we stand for?

Postby Fishbone » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:41 am

Spector567 wrote:What I was originally getting was simple.

Pastafarism was invented/brought into mainstream in order to satirize the original I.D. proposal and has continued to do so. However, that is not all it’s members are doing.

The name of FSM is being used for many things some which are fairly standard fun stuff.

There is now an awful lot of political stuff it’s being used for as well.

I was hoping to spark a discussion on what those issues are and sadly it appears there are none. This fact is actually rather insulting and discouraging. I along with over 50,000 other people have stated that we support a group. A group that appears currently to stand for very little and who’s name is used to support whatever ideal an individual will choose without regard to the whole.

While this could be amusing at times, it basically makes FSM useless and at times shameful as it’s name is used by people in and beyond this forum in ways that are not supported by even the minimal published ideals it has.

So what are we, and what do we as a group support.


A good basic question.
Being rather new, I find I am exploring the same question: What is this group?
Aside from the originating idea, and the rule structure that promotes goodness, FSM appears to be a leaderless, self-defining group. That makes it hard to argue with whatever shows up.
I would not expect to find terribly insightful writings every time I drop in. Some are thought provoking. Some are humorous. Others, like the never-ending pirate story, are fun. I expect to visit and leave many times without keying a word.
Now I could be way wrong. It could be that the special people, the titled ones with their names in color, are controlling the entire web site. They could have one ear to the FSM and carrying out His orders. Or like some religions, they could be making the whole thing up as they go along. Kind of like the “idiot behind the curtain” in the Wizard of Oz.
I’ll hang out now and again. I’m not looking for salvation or meaning or self-definition or people who agree with me. I enjoy the thoughtful discourse and the fun stuff.
That’s what FSM is to this new-comer.
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black bart
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Re: What do we stand for?

Postby black bart » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:56 am

Fishbone wrote:

Now I could be way wrong. It could be that the special people, the titled ones with their names in color, are controlling the entire web site. They could have one ear to the FSM and carrying out His orders. Or like some religions, they could be making the whole thing up as they go along. Kind of like the “idiot behind the curtain” in the Wizard of Oz.


I love that analogy

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Re: What do we stand for?

Postby Robbobrob » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:00 am

I have always held that FSMism is a cause pretending to be a religion. It allows us to tackle a serious topic without forcing us to have to act all serious and stuffy about it, as the opposition would want us to behave in a debate. Religions, Christians and others, who take themselves and their beliefs too serious are the real targets. I have many Christian and Jewish friends who fully support our cause, while still believing in their religion. They are not the target of this satire or this cause.

The real problem we face is that we are always playing both sides of the fence....acknowledging the satire tends to ruin the satire, but living the satire could ruin our real beliefs. It is a fine line, one very hard to balance, especially when drunk.

Overall, it does bring me a level of comfort, as the best of religion will do for its adherents. It comforts my fears that dogmatic blindness will rise up unopposed and ruin all the scientific advancements we have made, throwing us into a modern day Dark Ages. Knowing that smart, funny people are actively engaged in combatting such madness does relax my nerves and quell my fears for humanity.

I had always loved the Discordians (that religion that is a joke that is a religion), but they all stay very philosophical, and rarely mount any real momentum, mostly because they lack what Pastafarianism has.....a central cause to rally behind. It is the most key and important distinction between FSM and pretty much all the other parody religions. FSM has a legitimate purpose (whether you agree with it or not).
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Re: What do we stand for?

Postby fairyphil » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:04 am

Hello. I am a fairly new devote from France.

I've surfed both the website and the forum for a few days now, and I love what it conveys.

For me, I think Pastafarianism is a funny yet efficient weapon. It has prooved some efficiancy regarding ID in schools. But I also use it with pleasure as a rethorical weapon against those who try in any possible way to force their religion upon me. I used to be a catholic christian, but I've given up on that many years ago (when I was in age to think for myself). I am now a proud Pastafarian, because it is not a religion of the soul based on faith, but a cult of the absurd based on logic, irony, and self-derision at some point.

I get my good laughs when I go grocery-shopping on friday in full pirate regalia (see my avatar, I now dress like that every friday). I just love to answer when people ask me why i'm dressed like this. I made a few converts that way :D

So...
What do we stand for?

PASTA!

When do we want them?

NOW!

RAmen :fsm:


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