FSM and morality (A repost from my intro thread)

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bblader1
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FSM and morality (A repost from my intro thread)

Postby bblader1 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:42 pm

Hi. I thought my first post would have been an acceptable place to get all of this out of the way, but I was redirected here. So let's see.


I'm not an official convert, not just yet, at least. But I have been doing a bit of research on Pastafarianism and it's moral values, and I'm very interested and receptive to what the religion entails. However, I do have some questions before I can officially consider myself a follower of the religion, and whether or not it's right for me.

FSM is described as an omnipotent entity. He tampers with scientific results with his noodly appendages, which is truly an extraordinary power, and which also supports the claim that FSM is omnipotent. But in that case, why does FSM allow evil acts to occur, if he has the power to stop them? And surely he must if he is capable of tampering with every scientific result that has ever taken place. As sort of an extension, FSM is an open supporter of equal rights for humanity, as discussed in the eight I'd Really Rather You Didn't's. In which case, why has FSM done nothing about racist and sexist ideals, things that directly violate his moral code?

For that matter, what about evildoers in the afterlife with the Beer Volcano and the Stripper Factory? Even in the lower sectors where the beer is stale and the strippers have STDs, I'd imagine people are capable of harming others, if their senses to enjoy beer and strippers are still intact, surely they can still experience pain. What happens to people who commit crimes in the afterlife? I'm not worried about false convictions as FSM is omnipotent and knows who is innocent and guilty, but what happens to the guilty parties? Are they allowed back in Pastafarian Hell to commit more crimes? Does FSM convict them to isolation?

To expand further, what decides whether you go to Pastafarian Heaven or Hell? What qualifies you as being a good or a bad person to FSM? Are you a good person if you believe in FSM? Are you a bad person if you don't believe in him? Do you have to kill or rape to be condemned to Pastafarian Hell? Do you have to preach hateful, bigoted ideas to impressionable minds? Do you have to cause wars and mass genocide? Where exactly does FSM draw the line between "flawed, but well-intended human" and "Objectively bad person"?

I understand that Pastafarianism is a flexible belief system. Different people may have different answers to these questions. And that's fine. I'm just asking for YOUR answers to these questions. I've read up on this, and I want to believe FSM is truly a kind, loving entity. Honestly, I do. The idea of a religion that doesn't promote hatred, bigotry, or ridiculous outdated rules is attractive to me. A humble entity who doesn't demand worship and promotes love and acceptance is attractive to me. I want to embrace that into my life. But until I understand these questions and concerns, I don't think I can. But maybe they can. Which is why I've come here, asking for answers. Maybe this religion is right for me, and maybe it isn't. But I need your help to discern that it is.

A big thanks to anybody in advance who can help me understand these dilemmas.

Maybe I won't be saying this in the future, but what the Pastafarian Hell. I'll bite, just this once, if nothing else.

R'amen.

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Re: FSM and morality (A repost from my intro thread)

Postby daftbeaker » Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:36 pm

bblader1 wrote:Hi. I thought my first post would have been an acceptable place to get all of this out of the way, but I was redirected here. So let's see.

It's just the 'first post' thread really is a 'first post' thread, a place to say hello. If we start debating theology/gun control/noodles v pasta/the correct degree of toast burnage (just enough to leave black bits around the edges but a gentle golden-brown in the middle) then it will get very confusing.

bblader1 wrote:FSM is described as an omnipotent entity. He tampers with scientific results with his noodly appendages, which is truly an extraordinary power, and which also supports the claim that FSM is omnipotent. But in that case, why does FSM allow evil acts to occur, if he has the power to stop them? And surely he must if he is capable of tampering with every scientific result that has ever taken place. As sort of an extension, FSM is an open supporter of equal rights for humanity, as discussed in the eight I'd Really Rather You Didn't's. In which case, why has FSM done nothing about racist and sexist ideals, things that directly violate his moral code?

I have two theories. First, He is drunk/hungover and so cannot be bothered to intervene. If we think about it, there are relatively few occasions of scientists doing experiments that could prove/disprove the FSM so interfering with them will require little effort. Even a hungover and semi-pissed deity could alter the results of one experiment. However, there are lots and lots (and lots) of evil things happening and He is just too drunk/hungover/talking-to-himself-on-the-great-white-toilet to intervene with them.

The other option is the lax moral standards. I'd Really Rather You Didn't is not an 'I will intervene if you do this' and 'I will not force you to avoid this'. Imagine someone is standing at a first floor window with their underwear tied to the window frame. If you say 'I'd really rather you didn't jump out of that window' are you going to be blamed if they do jump?

bblader1 wrote:For that matter, what about evildoers in the afterlife with the Beer Volcano and the Stripper Factory? Even in the lower sectors where the beer is stale and the strippers have STDs, I'd imagine people are capable of harming others, if their senses to enjoy beer and strippers are still intact, surely they can still experience pain. What happens to people who commit crimes in the afterlife? I'm not worried about false convictions as FSM is omnipotent and knows who is innocent and guilty, but what happens to the guilty parties? Are they allowed back in Pastafarian Hell to commit more crimes? Does FSM convict them to isolation?

To expand further, what decides whether you go to Pastafarian Heaven or Hell? What qualifies you as being a good or a bad person to FSM? Are you a good person if you believe in FSM? Are you a bad person if you don't believe in him? Do you have to kill or rape to be condemned to Pastafarian Hell? Do you have to preach hateful, bigoted ideas to impressionable minds? Do you have to cause wars and mass genocide? Where exactly does FSM draw the line between "flawed, but well-intended human" and "Objectively bad person"?

You'd have to ask a theologian about those ones. To my mind, a more pressing question is 'what are those strippers?' If they are humans, are they dragged up from Hell for our amusement? Is there some sort of rota system for people in Heaven? Are they non-human constructs made of stone or cloud that look like humans?

bblader1 wrote:I understand that Pastafarianism is a flexible belief system. Different people may have different answers to these questions. And that's fine. I'm just asking for YOUR answers to these questions. I've read up on this, and I want to believe FSM is truly a kind, loving entity. Honestly, I do. The idea of a religion that doesn't promote hatred, bigotry, or ridiculous outdated rules is attractive to me. A humble entity who doesn't demand worship and promotes love and acceptance is attractive to me. I want to embrace that into my life. But until I understand these questions and concerns, I don't think I can. But maybe they can. Which is why I've come here, asking for answers. Maybe this religion is right for me, and maybe it isn't. But I need your help to discern that it is.

And now I'm going to have to be serious. Do you genuinely want to believe in the FSM or are you looking to make some good logical points? I would say if you are genuinely considering religions like you're window shopping atheism is for you given your lack of belief. If you can look at a square centimetre of soil and sky and realise that each one contains around a trillion constantly evolving objects it may remind you of the sheer wonder of nature. When you have the beauty and power of the Universe who needs a god? :scientist:
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I would rather be a rising ape than a falling angel - Sir Terry Pratchett

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Re: FSM and morality (A repost from my intro thread)

Postby Roy Hunter » Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:08 pm

Ignore this guy :stupid:

He knows NOTHING about toast.

bblader1 wrote:FSM is described as an omnipotent entity. He tampers with scientific results with his noodly appendages, which is truly an extraordinary power, and which also supports the claim that FSM is omnipotent. But in that case, why does FSM allow evil acts to occur, if he has the power to stop them? And surely he must if he is capable of tampering with every scientific result that has ever taken place. As sort of an extension, FSM is an open supporter of equal rights for humanity, as discussed in the eight I'd Really Rather You Didn't's. In which case, why has FSM done nothing about racist and sexist ideals, things that directly violate his moral code?

Is He described as an omnipotent entity? He has also been described as 'a bit of an asshole', remember. The FSM isn't really the ultimate source of morality or justice IMHO. If you don't like how you are treated, or how someone else is treated, do something about it yourself. Your deity is busy drinking and ogling boobs, He doesn't have time to right all the wrongs of the world.

bblader1 wrote:To expand further, what decides whether you go to Pastafarian Heaven or Hell? What qualifies you as being a good or a bad person to FSM? Are you a good person if you believe in FSM? Are you a bad person if you don't believe in him? Do you have to kill or rape to be condemned to Pastafarian Hell? Do you have to preach hateful, bigoted ideas to impressionable minds? Do you have to cause wars and mass genocide? Where exactly does FSM draw the line between "flawed, but well-intended human" and "Objectively bad person"?

Personally, I don't go for the definition 'objectively bad person'. All people have the capacity for good or bad actions. Would you have any hope or motivation to better yourself if you were described as 'objectively bad'?

bblader1 wrote:I understand that Pastafarianism is a flexible belief system. Different people may have different answers to these questions. And that's fine. I'm just asking for YOUR answers to these questions. I've read up on this, and I want to believe FSM is truly a kind, loving entity. Honestly, I do. The idea of a religion that doesn't promote hatred, bigotry, or ridiculous outdated rules is attractive to me. A humble entity who doesn't demand worship and promotes love and acceptance is attractive to me. I want to embrace that into my life. But until I understand these questions and concerns, I don't think I can. But maybe they can. Which is why I've come here, asking for answers. Maybe this religion is right for me, and maybe it isn't. But I need your help to discern that it is.

If you're looking for a religion that answers all your questions out of a book, keep looking. Pastafarianism asks more questions than it answers. I acknowledge the place that religion 'fits in' to the human psyche, but current religions based on ancient scriptures and outdated ideas are a bit like fixing a hole in a supporting wall of your house with duct tape. The hole is gone, or filled, whatever; but the problem isn't solved by a long way.

Pastafarianism is a placeholder for me, it reminds me that there are questions that remain unanswered about my life, but that superstitious belief systems don't answer them. I have had very meaningful discussions with people here who want to explore the gap which religion fills in their life. Maybe you can too?
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Re: FSM and morality (A repost from my intro thread)

Postby Qwertyuiopasd » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:58 pm

bblader1 wrote:FSM is described as an omnipotent entity. He tampers with scientific results with his noodly appendages, which is truly an extraordinary power, and which also supports the claim that FSM is omnipotent. But in that case, why does FSM allow evil acts to occur, if he has the power to stop them? And surely he must if he is capable of tampering with every scientific result that has ever taken place. As sort of an extension, FSM is an open supporter of equal rights for humanity, as discussed in the eight I'd Really Rather You Didn't's. In which case, why has FSM done nothing about racist and sexist ideals, things that directly violate his moral code?


I'll echo what others have said in this thread. The way I put it, the FSM is rather a lot like most people. We certainly have opinions, and it's very easy to share them (especially being the omnipotent creator of the universe, kind of the ultimate form of broadcast media, no?), but actually getting out there to do everything is a little daunting. Also, there's always the answer that that's why he created you, or all the good people (or the capacity for good in people), so that it can help stop all the bad things from happening.

I'm not sure the FSM should be given credit/blame for all the bad things happening (or not stopping them), because he doesn't really deserve credit/blame for most of the good things happening. He does his own part, certainly, but do you really think a hungover plate of carbohydrates helped that much with the development of democracy? Or science?

Basic guideline: the FSM is only as good at doing his job as omnipotent ruler of the universe as the below-average joe would be. So, pretty terribly sometimes.

bblader1 wrote:For that matter, what about evildoers in the afterlife with the Beer Volcano and the Stripper Factory? Even in the lower sectors where the beer is stale and the strippers have STDs, I'd imagine people are capable of harming others, if their senses to enjoy beer and strippers are still intact, surely they can still experience pain. What happens to people who commit crimes in the afterlife? I'm not worried about false convictions as FSM is omnipotent and knows who is innocent and guilty, but what happens to the guilty parties? Are they allowed back in Pastafarian Hell to commit more crimes? Does FSM convict them to isolation?

To expand further, what decides whether you go to Pastafarian Heaven or Hell? What qualifies you as being a good or a bad person to FSM? Are you a good person if you believe in FSM? Are you a bad person if you don't believe in him? Do you have to kill or rape to be condemned to Pastafarian Hell? Do you have to preach hateful, bigoted ideas to impressionable minds? Do you have to cause wars and mass genocide? Where exactly does FSM draw the line between "flawed, but well-intended human" and "Objectively bad person"?


Here's where I differ from many of my fellow Pastafarians. I'm a Universalist Pastafarian, so I don't actually think the Great Globular One even has a hell, or bad version of heaven. Again, think of the oversight and organizational skills necessary to even administer such distinctions. You've brought up only a handful of the tricky questions that can come up, and you're probably much brighter than our Lord and Savory-or. In fact, I'd wager that sometimes he can barely keep track of who is supposed to be in Heaven vs. on Earth, which accounts for near death experiences. Really the subjects were nowhere near death, but the FSM got a little confused and/or itchy trigger finger and started to bring them on up.

As for bad people doing bad things in Heaven, I don't think it happens because there isn't reason to. Heaven is a paradise, and everyone becomes enlightened, so there's no need for crime or psychological damage from not having various needs on Maslow's hierarchy met, and everyone realizes their unity in the FSM, so there's no xenophobia or other misguided reasons for hatred or violence. That said, if there ever were a crime, I'm pretty sure the punishments would all be along the lines of either a Keelhauling, or walking the plank, or some other such piratical shenanigaggery.
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