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Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:34 pm
by Chimaera
LibraLabRat wrote:PETA? Sorry, I am against animal cruelty. However, on top of being a hunter, I also work in a medical laboratory. Most animal testing is legitmate. Cosmetics? No. Drug efficacy and disease studies? Yes.

I agree strongly and would go further. I do not see why it is wrong to test cosmetics on animals. It is absurd to portray animal testing as wanton cruelty carried out by monsters for financial gain and/or personal gratification. Cosmetic companies are trying to develop safe products for prolonged use by humans (baby shampoo, for example). Animal testing is extremely expensive. Are we expected to believe that a cosmetic company would be testing (say) a lipgloss which they suspect might cause horrible suffering when applied to an animal? Why on earth would they do that?

LibraLabRat wrote:Finally, we are seeing dangerous trends in our country involving protesting.

Here in the UK, a lot of "protesting" animal rights is clear cut terrorism and should be treated as such. We are beginning to see similar behaviour in "protesting" abortion.

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:35 pm
by Capellini
LibraLabRat wrote:LIsten up Rex:

I have BEEN TO SOUTH KOREA. I HAVE SET FOOT IN NORTH KOREA.

I HAVE BEEN TO HAITI, SAUDI ARABIA, KUWAIT, QU'TAR, AND SOME OTHER PLACES.

You want to make a difference? Peachy.

Being a squealing little protestor has accomplished what, exactly?

Why dont you ask PETA? Or ALF? OR VPC, or any of these other rich, white, sappy useless protest organizations.


We have problems here in the USA.

You wanna know how I feel about China?


F**K CHINA.


If you havent noticed, we are losing soldiers every day in a useless and pointless war. But I guess us soldiers have it coming, since we arent all rich protestor kids with a cause, or poor chinese sweat shop workers.

Protest something worthwhile.


Official Moderator Statement

This is completely uncalled for. Maybe you're having a bad day, I don't know, but please step back and re-read this thread, and your response to it. No one has marginalized the war in Iraq in comparison to the human rights problems in China, no one is advocating protesting one major problem instead of another. This post is offensive, insulting, inflammatory, and a dishonest representation of the discussion as a whole and the people involved.

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:01 pm
by LibraLabRat
Sorry if I took it to the extreme. But it seems lately a lot of protestors are bemoaning the plight of the North african turd beetle and ignoring the larger problems that exist in the world.

So this woman got arrested for screaming at the Chinese president. It isnt like they had her publicly executed.

And yes, the Iraq war is more important than what is going on in China.

Why?

Because Americans are dying. I dont want to seem xenophobic or racist or whatever label is going to get hurled at me this time, but lets face it....

Some Americans need to quit sending money to feed starving children in Bolivia and take care of the starving kids that live four blocks over.

IT is a sense of perspective that I am talking about here.

They dont deal with the problems in their own back yard because it is safer to try to meddle in someone elses.

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:54 pm
by Rex-Imperator
LibraLabRat wrote:<snip>


Why is it so difficult for you to understand the concept that people can do both of those things you just mentioned AT THE SAME TIME!!!

It's called multi-tasking, you should try it.

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:03 pm
by Capellini
Sorry, but I don't value American lives over the lives of any other people.

Human beings being human beings and all that.

Also, you're comparing apples and oranges to a certain extent. You're comparing a problem that requires people take political action (since the only way to end the war is to vote out the war-mongers) to one that requires civil action. People can, in fact, do both.

There's no reason to suggest one absolute horror is worse or better than another absolute horror, or to make people feel that they can't contribute to more than one cause, or to make them feel guilty for having interest in something that happens outside the U.S.'s sphere.

Strictly by the numbers, the war in Iraq is currently not the biggest problem on the planet. Add in mitigating factors . . .

Getting volunteer soldiers out of an unjustice and likely unwinnable war is important. But I'm not going to say its more important than protecting innocent civilians unable to defend themselves from decades of genocide. Or the murder of unarmed civilians trying to exercise a right most of us take for granted. It's all disgusting, and we should all be disgusted by all of it.

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:19 pm
by beagle
Actually there was speculation in the press here that the protester was deliberately allowed in.

By the way LLR, Ghandi was assassinated by a Hindu radical, not killed by the British.

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:38 pm
by nose
beagle wrote:Actually there was speculation in the press here that the protester was deliberately allowed in.

By the way LLR, Ghandi was assassinated by a Hindu radical, not killed by the British.


I dontt hink he said Ghandi was killed by British, although Ghandi's followers were often killed by the British. This is a little off topic though.

Good article however, very intresting. Theres way to many topics going on in this one thread, lol. :pirate_fish:

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:57 pm
by beagle
There's another interesting article in today's Telegraph about the U.S. and China's global race for oil resources. I've been posting so many Telegraph links recently that I left it out for fear of looking like their sales department, but for the interested it's here.

It is relevant to the human rights side of the thread.

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:09 pm
by LibraLabRat
Ok, OK

Yes, the Human Rights violations in China are terrible. But what about India? Bangladesh? Saudi Arabia?

If you want to have a "regime change" in China, there is only one way to do it, and quite frankly I am not comfortable with dropping nuclear bombs on population centers.

They are the single most massive communist style beuracracy on the PLANET.

I think we have enough problems at home that need both political and civil action to be taken without trying to save the whole rest of the world, most of which doesnt want to be saved in the first place.

IF the Chinese want freedom, I suggest they apply for political asylum and move here.

It isnt like we dont have the room for it, and personally something needs to be done about the large amounts of land we have available for farm land that isnt getting used.

We need to get our own freedom in order, and that needs to be done first.

Sorry if I come across as an isolationist, but our "global" stance on things is working us right into third world nation status as it is.

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:29 pm
by Capellini
But this woman was Chinese, protesting a Chinese problem, directly at the Chinese president.

I'm not sure what your problem is here, but it seems as if you're saying that, not only should all Americans put America first, but the Chinese should as well.

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:54 pm
by LibraLabRat
Dont put words in my mouth.

She is in America, and has been dealt with according to American laws.

If it were in China, where would she be?

I am talking about Americans whining about the problems all over the world when we have problems that need to be dealt with here in America.

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:13 pm
by dukes
IMHO, we are missing an important point here. Regardless of the position the lady was taking, she had been admitted to a press conference, bearing a press pass. This was not a public forum - it was a press forum, for which a pass was required. A legitimate reporter, regardless of the publication that they work for, will NOT try turn a conference into a public forum - but she did. Asking tough questions is fair, but that's not what she did. If this had been a public forum, it would have been an entirely different matter, and the Chinese president would have had to deal with American openness.

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:17 pm
by ECQuaker
LibraLabRat wrote:
PETA? Sorry, I am against animal cruelty. However, on top of being a hunter, I also work in a medical laboratory. Most animal testing is legitmate. Cosmetics? No. Drug efficacy and disease studies? Yes.



I know that most animal testing is legitimate. Researchers are required to prevent as much pain as they possibly can when conducting animal testing, it's the law, but it didn't used to be. Researchers used to be allowed to do any tests or operations that they want, without anesthesia or any restrictions at all as to what they could do to these animals. Groups such as PETA lobbied for these laws.

I agree, by the way that drug and disease studies on animals should be allowed. Animal testing for vanity however, needs to stop. We have enough covergirl products to last us until the sun blows up.

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:22 am
by NewspeakIsUngood
Rex-Imperator wrote:
LibraLabRat wrote:LIsten up Rex:

I have BEEN TO SOUTH KOREA. I HAVE SET FOOT IN NORTH KOREA.

I HAVE BEEN TO HAITI, SAUDI ARABIA, KUWAIT, QU'TAR, AND SOME OTHER PLACES.

You want to make a difference? Peachy.

Being a squealing little protestor has accomplished what, exactly?

Why dont you ask PETA? Or ALF? OR VPC, or any of these other rich, white, sappy useless protest organizations.


We have problems here in the USA.

You wanna know how I feel about China?


F**K CHINA.


If you havent noticed, we are losing soldiers every day in a useless and pointless war. But I guess us soldiers have it coming, since we arent all rich protestor kids with a cause, or poor chinese sweat shop workers.

Protest something worthwhile.


As long as Bush is President the War in Iraq will not end.

It's that simple.

And until the year 2008 rolls around we are going to have to watch our boys be killed every single day for one simple reason.

We Want Iraq's Oil.

This is what the Iraq War is all about, not WMD, not freeing the Iraqi People, not Fighting Terrorism. It's about OIL.

And don't you DARE talk to me about not protesting the Iraq War because I was one of the few people dead set AGAINST this war way back in 2003 during the lead up to the invasion.

Iraq is our Vietnam and just like Vietnam the only way out is to cut and run.

Actualy it's just the opposite we don't want Iraq's oil. At least we don't want it to get to the market at anything near a cheap rate. Oil is an inelastic good, meaning that consumption really doesn't change. As supply drops it means that what oil is on the market gets a lot more valuable. Since the price of refining oil isn't really going up that much, and since oil companies stick to selling about the same amount, they make a lot of money off of rebuilding slowly. Just look at the profits posted by oil companies over the past decade, as cheap dependable oil become more and more scarce the big companies make more and more profit.

Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:27 am
by boghog
LibraLabRat wrote:She is in America, and has been dealt with according to American laws.

Doesn't anyone else care that, according to the article, she's been charged with a crime she didn't commit?

Here's what it said in the article Rex Impersonator provided:

A woman accused of heckling Chinese President Hu Jintao during a White House appearance this week was charged Friday in federal court with a misdemeanor of willfully intimidating, coercing[,] threatening and harassing a foreign official.


According to Secret Service translations provided in court documents, she shouted in Chinese: "Stop oppressing the Falun Gong," as well as "Your Time is running out," and "Anything you have done will come back to you in this lifetime." She also shouted in heavily accented English: "President Bush, stop him from killing," and "President Bush, stop him from persecuting the Falun Gong."

To me, it sounds like all she's done is make statements that pissed off the powers-that-be; she exercised free speech. Of course, the White House staff also have the freedom to take action: a simple "get off the property and don't come back," would be in order. A trumped-up charge is not.